Curse

K.Ichigo · Mar 17, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I noticed something with barbed trap. and dust trap

Using QZ -> EW -> Barbed trap/Dust trap, BT costs 4 energy. Dust trap costs 8 energy

EW -> QZ -> BT/DT, BOTH cost 6 energy!!?!

The other two traps costs 6 energy regardless...

Anyone like to explain?

Funny_Bunny · Mar 17, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

The order that spirits were placed affects the order the modifiers are applied. It goes from left (applied first) to right (applied after) on your user interface in the upper left corner, assuming you haven't changed your interface.

I have done some testing over half a year ago to confirm that indeed the order does matter, but it seems Expertise now applies at a different stage (back when I tested it, QZ and Expertise were applied together). But it seems Expertise applies afterwards.. hmm, I'll have to redo tests, they may have changed it.

Btw, it helps if you list your Expertise so that it's easier to reproduce results.

I'll redo my testing when I get home since I like to keep my information up-to-date.

K.Ichigo · Mar 17, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

14 exp

Funny_Bunny · Mar 17, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I just did retesting and it seems they changed the stage that Expertise is factored in now.

But anyway, here's the calculations.

Assume 14 Expertise

QZ, then EW for Barbed
Barbed gets increased to 19.5 because of QZ, and then rounded DOWN to 19.
EW subtracts 15 from 19, but puts the minimum cost to 10 energy.
14 Expertise then reduces 10 energy to 4

QZ, then EW for Dust
Dust gets increased to 32.5 because of QZ, and then rounded UP to 33
EW subtracts 15 from 33, and that puts it at 18 energy
14 Expertise then reduces 18 energy to 7.92, rounded to 8 energy.

QZ, then EW for 10 energy traps
Gets increased to 13 because of QZ, no rounding necessary.
EW subtracts 15 from 13, but puts the minimum cost to 10 energy.
14 Expertise then reduces 10 energy to 4

EW, then QZ for Barbed
Barbed gets reduced by 15 from 15, but puts the minimum cost to 10 energy
QZ increases the cost to 13.
14 Expertise then reduces 13 energy to 5.72, rounded to 6 energy

EW, then QZ for Dust
Dust gets reduced by 15 from 25, but puts the minimum cost to 10 energy
QZ increases the cost to 13.
14 Expertise then reduces 13 energy to 5.72, rounded to 6 energy

EW, then QZ for 10 energy traps
Dust gets reduced by 15 from 10, but puts the minimum cost to 10 energy
QZ increases the cost to 13.
14 Expertise then reduces 13 energy to 5.72, rounded to 6 energy

I realize that there is a certain discrepancy for the rounding on QZ by itself. I did confirm that the rounding does occur like I stated by manipulating my maximum energy using equipment and armor to make sure there was no human error involved in reading differences (like energy regeneration) For example, in Dust Trap, I manipulated my maximum energy to be 32 and 33 (obviously 32 is easy) I could not use Dust Trap under QZ when I had 32 energy. I could use Barbed Trap under QZ with 19 maximum energy. I double checked with runes, and I made sure I had 0 expertise when conducting rounding tests for QZ in isolation.

It's entirely possible that the rounding the game uses rounds to the nearest odd integer when it's a 0.5 for QZ. Seems like an interesting idea. Though we know for a fact that that's NOT how rounding works for say, Expertise. So I wouldn't overgeneralize it.

I did not do the same maximum energy procedure to obtain the results for the FINAL energy cost. I just read off the energy difference when I used the skill and simply assumed that Expertise rounds correctly when I did the calculations to reconfirm. It certainly wouldn't be hard, I would just need to go get Death Penalty, but meh. I'll just assume Expertise rounds correctly and leave it at that.

Before Expertise affecting stage got changed (way back when I did my first tests many months ago), it used to be that Expertise and QZ were combined when you did QZ->EW. Expertise now applies LAST after QZ->EW. It's all the better for UW trappers really. Just be sure QZ gets placed before EW.

Valerius · Mar 17, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Funny_Bunny you rock

... that info will come in handy

K.Ichigo · Mar 18, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

It's annoying because QZ costs 25 energy though.... instead of the 4 energy it could be if it were placed after the 5 energy EW.

Funny_Bunny · Mar 18, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

QZ gets reduced to 11 energy at 14 Expertise (I'm using 14 because it seems that you use 14)

Let's say you have 14 Expertise, just to be consistent with our example.

If you use QZ, then EW, it would cost 11 for QZ then 3 for EW (because of QZ), a total of 14 energy
If you use EW, then QZ, it would cost 2 for EW, then 4 for QZ, a total of 6 energy

So initially, EW->QZ is cheaper by 8 energy.

However, at 14 Expertise, we can see that for QZ->EW, the faster recharging traps, Spike Trap, Barbed Trap and Flame Trap, cost 2 less energy compared to EW->QZ. Dust Trap costs 2 more, but it recharges slower.

In the grand scheme of things when you lay down multiple traps, there will be a noticeable difference because those traps with faster recharge times will be counted more as you place multiple copies, and thus carry more weight for your total energy consumption.

Additionally, if you place EW before QZ, your QZ suffers from a longer recharge time. Since traps last 90 seconds before ending, it doesn’t hurt to place a new QZ after the first one ends (your 2nd QZ will be affected by EW's recharge time penalty though) With Serpent's Quickness, QZ recharges in 40 seconds by itself. So before the 90 seconds up, ideally you can put down two QZ's one after another and pull sometime before the 2nd QZ ends. Alternatively, you can spec your Beast Mastery appropriately so that you can use EW as a counter and pull when it ends. It should be noted that the second time your QZ is placed, the order of your spirits will change to EW->QZ instead of QZ->EW.